Case width issue with Lee dies

robinzon · Post by **robinzon** » 18 Aug 2013, 17:41

Hello all, :cya:

I have been reading very useful info on this forum for a bit, finally decided to register as I finally got all my dies and started experimenting with the 5.7x28. I am using Lee Limited Prod. dies on a Lee Turret press (rod removed)..... several issues arose:

A. After sizing some of the cases measure .312 diameter in the middle, some go to 312.5 or even .313... is this an issue (1/15)?
I tried screwing the die in further, but did not see much of a difference, did not want to go any deeper as am afraid of bumping the
shoulder too much (the neck diameter is within/under spec. btw). I was thinking about RCBS Small Base dies, but read mixed reviews.
A1. is there an easy way to measure shoulder length to check for bumping?
B. After making some dummy rounds they chamber and extract fine (see A above). All within length... Interestingly enough
Lee Bullet Seating die has a roll crimp, I forgot about that as I usually never use roll crimping combo dies (factory crimps only)
and initially screwed the die in 1/4 turn, but the crimp activates before the bullet is within OAL (so I just screwed it up 1/2 turn and
was using a seating function only). I don't care about crimping but curious as to remedying the problem in general (for say other calibers)

C. Swagger.... I swagged several cases and then primed an empty shell to make sure the hammer ignites the primer. After manually
chambering the primer indeed fired (in safe direction). However, after I took the case out and tried to place it into the
holding plate on the press it won't go, the primer popped a bit, I had to hammer it in so that I can deprime...... What gives?
Should I NOT SWAG the cases (I read both ends of that discussion)?!?!!? :ponder:

Thanks!!!!

grimmond · Post by **grimmond** » 18 Aug 2013, 19:06

I have had no problems swagging. You just have to make sure you do not seat the swag to deep.

DoubleJ · Post by **DoubleJ** » 18 Aug 2013, 20:41

I just got the Lee dies as well, I set up the sizing die per the RCBS instructional video. I run the ram all the way up, lower the die till it touches the shell holder, drop the ram, tighten the die 1/8 turn. RCBS says this allows the blah blah blah something or other compound lever to make sure the case goes all the way in. I dunno. For seating, I run the ram up with a case in it, seating die down till it touches the case mouth, then back 1/4 turn and tighten. The internet says don't crimp em. I've found that Rem 6 1/2 primers on my press go right into the pockets with no swagging, just occasionally turning the case in the shell holder is all I've run into. Of course, I've only loaded 50 rounds so far, so count me as far from experienced.

grimmond · Post by **grimmond** » 18 Aug 2013, 21:29

Sorry my computer rebooted on me before I could finish answering your questions.

A: There is no issue with your dies. Just make sure you are pulling the lever with the same force every time. Also if it is still concerning you, Buy EA's case length gauge. You will find it very indispensable. Also a good set of digital calipers comes in handy.

B: Do not try to use the roll crimp, the rounds should be tight enough with just sizing them. If they are not snug and you can push them in by hand pull out the center mandril and polish it with some 8000grit paper so that it is a hair smaller. If it is still a concern you can use primer/bullet sealer which is basically clear nail polish.

C: I had the same issue when I first started swagging and this is what I figured out. When you are pushing the swag into the case, stop when the case meets the portion that starts to bevel. If you push it any deeper it will put a bevel on the primer pocket and it will be loose and pop out some like you experienced. Or you can switch to a primer pocket trimmer and just barely remove the crimp. Or you can do like some and just try to force the primers in past the crimps, which sometimes doesn't work all that well. Swagging works for some and for some doesn't. I personally like to swag now that I know what not to do.

robinzon · Post by **robinzon** » 19 Aug 2013, 03:19

grimmond wrote:Sorry my computer rebooted on me before I could finish answering your questions.

A: There is no issue with your dies. Just make sure you are pulling the lever with the same force every time. Also if it is still concerning you, Buy EA's case length gauge. You will find it very indispensable. Also a good set of digital calipers comes in handy.

B: Do not try to use the roll crimp, the rounds should be tight enough with just sizing them. If they are not snug and you can push them in by hand pull out the center mandril and polish it with some 8000grit paper so that it is a hair smaller. If it is still a concern you can use primer/bullet sealer which is basically clear nail polish.

C: I had the same issue when I first started swagging and this is what I figured out. When you are pushing the swag into the case, stop when the case meets the portion that starts to bevel. If you push it any deeper it will put a bevel on the primer pocket and it will be loose and pop out some like you experienced. Or you can switch to a primer pocket trimmer and just barely remove the crimp. Or you can do like some and just try to force the primers in past the crimps, which sometimes doesn't work all that well. Swagging works for some and for some doesn't. I personally like to swag now that I know what not to do.

Thanks for the reply, I did indeed order the EA gauge yesterday just to be safe... my digital calipers work just fine and that is why I can measure the discrepancies I described... shoulders are harder to measure... You may be right on the force applied. What is your average case diameter after sizing? and how deep is your die in?
Yes, indeed crimping does not seem to be necessary, I get a tightly seated bullet

so I will continue as you mentioned.

I can try primer pocket reamer (not cheap oddly enough~ $30 per size)....or my adjust the swag as you suggested.

GONRA · Post by **GONRA** » 19 Aug 2013, 13:13

GONRA sez: Use RCBS SMALL BASE Dies and Dillon Primer Pocket Swager,
SPT Oil Treatment for the case lube, big strong press and you won't have all these problems.....

robinzon · Post by **robinzon** » 19 Aug 2013, 13:58

GONRA wrote:GONRA sez: Use RCBS SMALL BASE Dies and Dillon Primer Pocket Swager,
SPT Oil Treatment for the case lube, big strong press and you won't have all these problems.....

I did use the Dillon Super Swagger and I am not sure how SPT will matter... Lee Turret is what I gots.

Post by **panzermk2** » 19 Aug 2013, 14:03

RCBS dies have to many problems the most of which is not sizing properly. The go/no go gauge will let you know where the problem is if there is one. Did you watch the how vid on how to use it? Has some great tips.

robinzon · Post by **robinzon** » 19 Aug 2013, 14:36

Yes indeed I did, though it was some time ago. Very hepful 3in1 gauge. Now as far as setting the shoulder back with LEE dies
(and I read RCBS reviews and I will stay away even though for 223 / 308 small base are indispensable) I assume that directly relates to
the depth of the die being screwed in, unless with 5.7 there is another parameter that can be changed. I do know that incorrectly
positioned mandrel (though these are new dies) can cause the neck to become too wide but I have not ran into shoulder issued with .223 rounds for example (then again they do not expand like 5.7 so different animal).

Thanks in advance.

BTW: dummy rounds I made with my cases chambered and ejected just fine out of the ps90

panzermk2 wrote:RCBS dies have to many problems the most of which is not sizing properly. The go/no go gauge will let you know where the problem is if there is one. Did you watch the how vid on how to use it? Has some great tips.

robinzon · Post by **robinzon** » 20 Aug 2013, 15:01

Just a quick update.. As per some suggestions I reset the die position about 1/2 turn past camover, and lubed the case w/ liquid lube and made a slow stroke... the case width is now .311 or so (there is a taper indeed). So slow and lubed is the way to go. Ordered
a set of Hornady dies (available at Natchezs!!!) just in case.

Will load and shoot some rounds and report back.

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 24 Aug 2013, 20:03

Sounds like you are doing well!!!

If your die is holding the case diameter within a thousandth around 0.311 or 0.312 you should be fine. If it gets up to 2+ thousandths like it did on mine (http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic ... &start=120" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) they won't feed from a PS90 mag due to the taper (since the magazine is straight).

I recommend reloading 50 of them – then fully load the PS90 mag and see if it is hard to feed them in or out (as compared to factory ammo). Since I got my die fixed, I have had no issues.

Also, regarding firing primers only, they will many times pop out some since there isn’t any chamber pressure to firmly hold them in place (ie brass swelling up and pushing firmly against the bolt). I have seen this many time regardless of how tight the pocket is from semi autos to revolvers that I have reloaded for and played with firing only primers (sometimes with wax slugs loaded :-) ).

robinzon · Post by **robinzon** » 25 Aug 2013, 18:28

starfury wrote:Sounds like you are doing well!!!

If your die is holding the case diameter within a thousandth around 0.311 or 0.312 you should be fine. If it gets up to 2+ thousandths like it did on mine (http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic ... &start=120" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) they won't feed from a PS90 mag due to the taper (since the magazine is straight).

I recommend reloading 50 of them – then fully load the PS90 mag and see if it is hard to feed them in or out (as compared to factory ammo). Since I got my die fixed, I have had no issues.

Also, regarding firing primers only, they will many times pop out some since there isn’t any chamber pressure to firmly hold them in place (ie brass swelling up and pushing firmly against the bolt). I have seen this many time regardless of how tight the pocket is from semi autos to revolvers that I have reloaded for and played with firing only primers (sometimes with wax slugs loaded :-) ).

So I finally loaded a small batch (30) of my once fired brass with 40gr V-max and True Blue 5.5 gr (I really wanted to be super conservative). My OAL is around 1.589-1590 on these. I loaded them into the mag. The feed in and out by hand fine, I also cocked and hand ejected the entire mag out of the PS90 w/o a hitch. Will try them out this week. What a PITA this was! very very tricky round, the shoulders are quite a bit different from factory, I could not get a perfect angle like the factory casings, but they feed well and sit in the breech well also. Not sure if I should get my OAL even less with a boat tail bullet. I saw someone tried the Sierra Varminters, have some of those may try them. Please let me know if you have any other thoughts. There is definitely tapering to the casee .311 to .312 on bottom.

Thanks

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 27 Aug 2013, 15:10

Since you cycled them through you are probably good to go but the real proof is when you shoot them and see if anything hangs up. If it hangs pull the mag and inspect if the next round is sitting there in the mag with no real pressure on it. With one thousandths of taper you might see things hang a little when you push it up to 50 rounds level (loading will get tough as you get near the end).

Good luck!

robinzon · Post by **robinzon** » 01 Sep 2013, 09:48

starfury wrote:Since you cycled them through you are probably good to go but the real proof is when you shoot them and see if anything hangs up. If it hangs pull the mag and inspect if the next round is sitting there in the mag with no real pressure on it. With one thousandths of taper you might see things hang a little when you push it up to 50 rounds level (loading will get tough as you get near the end).

Good luck!

At the range they performed really well, even with fast double taps or 10 rounds in fast succession.. no problems.
I did purchase Hornady dies and the tolerances are much tighter, the casings come out .310-.3015 certianly not .312 like on the Lee die and the shoulder looks considerably better. Also they easily pass the EA Gauge test. There were a couple of rounds that wound up having some coating taken off with this die but the results of resizing are much more impressive, I am not sure what is going on with the Lee dies but I just can't get them to get a better resizing spec even though my rifle has no problems with the rounds even though some do not pass the Gauge test.

JollyRogers · Post by **JollyRogers** » 01 Sep 2013, 10:13

robinzon - you are not alone. I have had the exact same experiences with my Lee vs Hornady die sets. If I get in a slightly to fast of a rhythm using the Hornady resizing die or a case not lubed well and I'll tend to scrape the lacquer, and with the Lee dies have to set the resizing die just right to get the resized cases to pass in the case gauge. Both sets work, and it is good to have a back up.

Post by **panzermk2** » 01 Sep 2013, 11:34

It would suck if LEE is letting things slip with their 5.7 dies. For years they were to go to dies.

grimmond · Post by **grimmond** » 01 Sep 2013, 18:23

I just checked one of my Lee backup sets and it is not as good as my original. It seems to have the same issue.

fd57 · Post by **fd57** » 01 Sep 2013, 19:20

Couple Hornady and couple Lee dies for 5.7x28mm. Both Hornady are better than both Lee

With respect to shoulder formation attempting to mimic original case.

Post by **panzermk2** » 02 Sep 2013, 08:21

grimmond wrote:I just checked one of my Lee backup sets and it is not as good as my original. It seems to have the same issue.

I think it's time for a call to LEE. I would need some hard numbers though.

robinzon · Post by **robinzon** » 02 Sep 2013, 10:33

Well, the die sizes to .3120 .3125 and SOMETIMES to .3115 if that is what you mean by numbers, as far as .3125 I would say 20% .3120 50% and .3115 30%.... If you get the die to sit JUST RIGHT, that proportion may change, Hornady consistently sizes to .310-.311... I never had a case larger then .311 and all pass the gauge test.

Post by **panzermk2** » 02 Sep 2013, 11:38

robinzon wrote:Well, the die sizes to .3120 .3125 and SOMETIMES to .3115 if that is what you mean by numbers, as far as .3125 I would say 20% .3120 50% and .3115 30%.... If you get the die to sit JUST RIGHT, that proportion may change, Hornady consistently sizes to .310-.311... I never had a case larger then .311 and all pass the gauge test.

You might want to call LEE and talk to them about it. At least get a new die set from them that properly sizes and also give them a heads up.

dfb5069 · Post by **dfb5069** » 02 Sep 2013, 18:06

I have had the exact same issues with my Leee dies. They will not pass my EA go/no go, not even close. I have issues with not cycling consistently. I contacted Peter at Lee, and explained the situation. I sent 2 fired rounds, 2 fired then resized by my Lee dies, and 2 resized by my Hornady dies to him The rounds sized by Hornady are perfect every time and fit go/no gauge with absolutely no issues. I got the dies back from Lee, they said there was nothing wrong with the dies. They did not even take the dies sized by my Hornady out of the package. I am debating on sending them back again or throwing them in the scrap metal pile. Very disappointed in Lee at this point. Any suggestions?

Post by **panzermk2** » 03 Sep 2013, 08:42

dfb5069 wrote:I have had the exact same issues with my Leee dies. They will not pass my EA go/no go, not even close. I have issues with not cycling consistently. I contacted Peter at Lee, and explained the situation. I sent 2 fired rounds, 2 fired then resized by my Lee dies, and 2 resized by my Hornady dies to him The rounds sized by Hornady are perfect every time and fit go/no gauge with absolutely no issues. I got the dies back from Lee, they said there was nothing wrong with the dies. They did not even take the dies sized by my Hornady out of the package. I am debating on sending them back again or throwing them in the scrap metal pile. Very disappointed in Lee at this point. Any suggestions?

Tell them you want a refund.

GONRA · Post by **GONRA** » 03 Sep 2013, 13:38

GONRA sez: After you get Refund, purchase SMALL BASE RCBS dies, etc. etc, etc.
as I've said many tymes before......

Post by **panzermk2** » 03 Sep 2013, 17:07

GONRA wrote:GONRA sez: After you get Refund, purchase SMALL BASE RCBS dies, etc. etc, etc.
as I've said many tymes before......

And run a 50/50 chance of getting a set that won't resize properly ether.

kbohrer79 · Post by **kbohrer79** » 03 Sep 2013, 18:35

I too had the problem with the Lee dies, the resized case would not fit in the EA go no go gauge without forcing it in, however it would cycle through the weapon. I checked the size of the case and found the same problem with the middle of the case. I purchased an RCBS die set and it solved the problem the resized case will fit beautiful in the EA gauge.

Yelraek · Post by **Yelraek** » 04 Sep 2013, 12:14

robinzon wrote:Well, the die sizes to .3120 .3125 and SOMETIMES to .3115 if that is what you mean by numbers, as far as .3125 I would say 20% .3120 50% and .3115 30%.... If you get the die to sit JUST RIGHT, that proportion may change, Hornady consistently sizes to .310-.311... I never had a case larger then .311 and all pass the gauge test.

Just put my very first case through my RCBS die; 0.3112 right behind the shoulder. I'm using the RCBS lube pad because it's all I have right now... Waiting for my order of Hornady One Shot case lube to come in. It looks like I lost about a little less than a square quarter inch of laquer on one side of the case near the base. And the shoulder is looking just like factory.

It also slid nice a smooth into the EA gauge.

Good start I think.

GONRA · Post by **GONRA** » 04 Sep 2013, 12:54

GONRA's friendly jab at panzermk2:
Looks like GONRA, kbohrer79 and Yelraek are batting 100% on RCBS (small base?) dies.

Yelraek · Post by **Yelraek** » 04 Sep 2013, 14:40

Gonra, you're hilarious. Love the third person speech. My RCBS dies are actually full length. Which is probably why I'm more around the .3112 mark and not .3110.

I wouldn't say I'm batting 100% but it is my first batch.

kmiles · Post by **kmiles** » 05 Sep 2013, 09:41

You can add my name to the list of people that use the RCBS full length dies (purchased in August 2012) to the list that functions 100%. Have been through over 2000 reloads, and have never had a FTE or FTF. I do have to pay particular attention when setting up the bullet seating die to make sure the die body is set low enough to get rid of the lip expansion caused during the resizing process, but not low enough that it creates a crimp. The reloads were feeding just fine in the FsN, but after about 1000 rounds I finally purchased the EA go/no go gauge, and discovered the lip of the case was not to spec once the bullet was seated. A slight (less than 1/8 of a turn) adjustment on the seating die solved the issue.

robinzon · Post by **robinzon** » 06 Sep 2013, 15:38

GONRA wrote:GONRA's friendly jab at panzermk2:
Looks like GONRA, kbohrer79 and Yelraek are batting 100% on RCBS (small base?) dies.

Robinzon says: Buy a set of Hornady dies, and don't listen to Gonra's RCBS sales pitch

WhiteFether · Post by **WhiteFether** » 27 Jun 2015, 18:48

I've done several hundred 5.7s with my Lee dies. Only one failure and that was the first set up round .......I pushed the shoulder down too far and got the dreaded shoulder hump

Everything else has ran like a champ

jkelley209 · Post by **jkelley209** » 10 Jul 2015, 07:53

i like Redding no trouble at all even with the coating

GONRA · Post by **GONRA** » 10 Jul 2015, 13:54

GONRA has said this a zillion tymes - but my RCBS Small Base 5.7x28FN dies verked perfectly right out of the box.
Used in heavy duty Hollywood Senior press, STP Oil Treatment case lube, RCBS shell holder.
Sized right back to factory specs (miked along side a FN factory round)
coating didn't come off (OK - one time in 970 cases) and Shoot Great!.

FiveseveNForum.com

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